tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21308815.post7992680127249850731..comments2023-10-08T15:51:17.426+00:00Comments on Beyond Necessity: Genesis and ReferenceEdward Ockhamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07583379503310147119noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21308815.post-28002301685562493782016-01-12T09:15:50.906+00:002016-01-12T09:15:50.906+00:00Thanks Chris, much appreciated.Thanks Chris, much appreciated.Edward Ockhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07583379503310147119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21308815.post-38774908590407121432016-01-11T21:21:17.369+00:002016-01-11T21:21:17.369+00:00>>doesn't it translate 'elohim' ...>>doesn't it translate 'elohim' as 'kyrios' or something like that<<<br /><br />No, elohim = theos; adonai = kyrios. YHWH is also translated by 'kyrios'. The history of this translation choice, as I understand it, is found in the fact that Jews, in order to avoid breaking the commandment, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" avoided pronouncing 'YHWH' altogether. When reading from Scripture they would say 'Adonai' whenever they came to an instance of 'YHWH' in the text. (As a reminder to do this, scribes put in the vowel-points from 'Adonai' in 'YHWH', and the attempt to pronounce that amalgam phonetically resulted in the word 'Jehovah'). Hence the LXX's choice of 'kyrios', the Greek equivalent of 'Adonai', for 'YWHW'.Chris McCartneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04229474918154303571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21308815.post-62599511231297260302016-01-06T10:01:41.274+00:002016-01-06T10:01:41.274+00:00Chris,
Thanks for this comment, and welcome to B...Chris, <br /><br />Thanks for this comment, and welcome to Beyond Necessity!<br /><br />The discussion at the other place was confusing as people were using terms like 'reference' in a loose way. Strictly speaking, if a definite description expression used in 'the F is G' is a Russellian description, then it is really an indefinite description that can be be satisfied by no more than one thing. It means something like 'some x is uniquely F and x is G'. So for Russellian descriptions, we should ask whether they are satisfied or not, rather than whether they 'refer'. If it is referential, by contrast, then there is some relation implied between the referring term and the referent. And, strictly speaking a referring term must have a referent whether or not its proposition or its negation is true. I.e. whether 'a is F' is true, or its negation 'not: a is F' is true, 'a' must refer if it is a referring term or 'logically proper name'.<br /><br />>>He's not using 'God' as a proper name there. <br />Agree, despite the capital 'G'.<br /><br />>>The LXX translates 'Elohim' as 'ho theos', and the NT follows suit. The definite article vitiates against reading it as a proper name, right?<br />I didn't know this. I looked at the Greek NT, and doesn't it translate 'elohim' as 'kyrios' or something like that (not looking right now).<br /><br />>>But surely they also can and do use it as a singular descriptive term, equivalent to 'ho theos'.<br />Again, do we mean Russellian descriptive term, or referring descriptive term? I don't believe Russell's analysis is much good in any case. <br /><br />>>If I say "Let's worship God," is my meaning that we should worship the character in the Bible, or is my meaning that we should worship the one being who has a divine nature? <<<br />My view is the former, against Bill and others. <br /><br />>>In a context where you and I both hold that the character in the Bible is the only being who has a divine nature, it hardly matters which thing I mean, and I might not have decided which thing I intended when I said it. <<<br /><br />We should talk about 'intention' later. My fundamental area of disagreement with Bill is that he thinks that intentions have something to do with reference and semantics, I think that they have nothing to do. My reason is that intentions and thoughts and stuff are invisible, unless we are clairvoyants, and that the purpose of language is to express ourselves to others. Thus, either the intention is visible from the outside, as it were, by the use of visible or audible signs, or not. If the latter, then it cannot be communicated by signs, and is irrelevant to semantics. <br /><br />My paradigm is sentences like 'John was in the party but <i>he</i> left early'. I say that the back-reference of 'he' is wholly independent of my intention, and that it is guaranteed by grammar and the semantics and customary use of pronouns. I might have intended to refer to Susan, or hamburgers, but then my intention failed. I referred to John.<br />Edward Ockhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07583379503310147119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21308815.post-60811469813539908062016-01-06T01:23:07.411+00:002016-01-06T01:23:07.411+00:00But the word 'god' seems to be a descripti...But the word 'god' seems to be a descriptive term. Otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing as polytheism. Or monotheism for that matter. The proper name of the God introduced in Genesis is YHWH. 'YHWH is God' is not like 'Cicero is Tully'. Elijah on Mt. Carmel said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If YHWH is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." He's not using 'God' as a proper name there. <br /><br />The LXX translates 'Elohim' as 'ho theos', and the NT follows suit. The definite article vitiates against reading it as a proper name, right? I don't deny that English speakers can and do use 'God' as if it were a proper name. But surely they also can and do use it as a singular descriptive term, equivalent to 'ho theos'. And might it not in many circumstances be indefinite which use is intended? If I say "Let's worship God," is my meaning that we should worship the character in the Bible, or is my meaning that we should worship the one being who has a divine nature? In a context where you and I both hold that the character in the Bible is the only being who has a divine nature, it hardly matters which thing I mean, and I might not have decided which thing I intended when I said it.Chris McCartneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04229474918154303571noreply@blogger.com